An Amtrak locomotive caught fire yesterday on its way from Chicago to Milwaukee. Fortunately, all 51 passengers were safely evacuated from the six-car train.
At about the time the locomotive was burning, a reporter was telling the Antiplanner that “everyone” in Washington was saying that the Philadelphia accident proves that Amtrak needs more money. No doubt the Wisconsin incident will add fuel to this fire.
But go back and read the first paragraph: There were only 51 passengers on this train. All of them could have fit on one motorcoach, many of which have 52 to 57 seats (and Megabus’s double-decker buses have 80 seats). The Horizon coaches used on this train typically have 60 seats, which means the train was less than one-sixth full. According to Amtrak’s performance report for fiscal year 2014, the Chicago-Milwaukee Hiawatha trains filled an average of 36 percent of their seats in 2014, or less than two Megabuses.
Amtrak fares for its seven daily trains each way between Chicago and Milwaukee start at $24. According to Busbud, Greyhound and Megabus together offer 13 trips per day each way between Chicago and Milwaukee, and fares are often as low as $7 and never higher than $10.
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In other words, the subsidy alone would have been enough to give every single Hiawatha rider a free trip on Greyhound or Megabus (at the low cost of $7 per trip).
Rail proponents say we need to have trains because some people prefer trains over buses. Apparently, there aren’t very many such people, or the Hiawathas would fill more seats, but there are a few willing to pay $24 for a trip that would only cost them $7 to $10 on a bus. I suspect most of them bill the fare to their employers.
If Amtrak were to disappear tomorrow, I’m sure Greyhound, Megabus, and other bus companies would be glad to take up the slack. For those who are too snobbish to take an ordinary bus, someone like Limoliner or Vamoose Gold would be happy to charge them two or three times ordinary bus fares to get a luxury ride with wider seats, more legroom, on-board food services, and other amenities.
Until that happens, now you know why you should be happy that your tax dollars are going to subsidize Amtrak: so that a few snobs who won’t ride ordinary buses can get subsidies to ride expensive and mostly empty trains.
Hmmnnn…
So there is about 800,000 Amtrak riders per year between Milwaukee and Chicago.
Well, based on 13 daily bus round trips and assuming 40 passengers per bus, you get 1,020 daily riders, or around 400,000 per year.
Interesting that with fares 2-2.x times the bus fare, Amtrak gets two-thirds of the public transportation market–and with half the frequency, too.
I guess the real transportation snobs are the vast majority who still drive, e.g., partly because the train depots are long distances away from many dispersed origins and destinations, and they’ll never ride a bus…
This implies a better approach might be investments in Amtrak that help increase farebox revenues and reduce operating subsidy needs, such as investing in much cheaper-to-operate, lightweight diesel multiple units that also better match train length to demand; see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4It0wso3SMQ. But then the DMUs pictured in the link are operated in the socialist hellhole of Estonia, a former Soviet colony, and the current brain-dead management of Amtrak probably wouldn’t get it.
Just to stir the pot of the smelly brown stuff some more:
No Such Thing as a Free-Way” (with apologies to Donald Shoup)
It’s the same old sleight of hand from mendacious msetty. How can you maintain a straight face while peddling these repackaged lies? Pretend property taxes that pay for local roads are a “subsidy” to car drivers so that he can claim roads don’t pay most of their own cost on the national level. Local roads are a public good that’s necessary for the basic functioning of society, like power or water or sewage. To pretend otherwise is the height of sophistry and deceit. But then again, we’d expect nothing else from msetty and his foaming at the mouth war on cars.
And by the way, linking to hate-filled blogs like “strong” towns doesn’t really strengthen your case one bit. It’s simply one more incidence of your building your own personal echo chamber. Might as well put that asshole Dom Nozzi’s diatribes up…I see he’s selling a whole new package of the same old lies on his latest blog post. Basically claiming all the old planner fantasies and beliefs are 100% true without providing a molecule, much less a shred, of evidence for any of it.
Just to stir the pot of the smelly brown stuff some more:
There’s plenty of “smelly brown stuff” in that blog post. Mainly of the “bull” variety.
Guess a geo degree from the 70s didn’t come with a class on reliable information.
“Published jointly by the Frontier Groups [sic] and U. S. PIRG Education Fund”
Frontier Group:
Lead author, Tony Dutzik, had degrees in print journalism and public service. Hmm.
The domain name frontiergroup.org is registered to FFPIR, The Fund for the Public Interest, which is a canvasing organization. Hmm.
So the “Frontier Group” is just a front for the corporate FFPIR canvassers. I love those canvassers! Always hassling me on the streets to sign this or that or give money for this or that, most of which doesn’t go to what it’s said to go to.
This is some really reliable info!
U. S. PIRG Education Fund:
Also registered to FFPIR. Essentially another arm of the leftist corporate advocacy behemoth.
*Yawn*
“I guess the real transportation snobs are the vast majority who still drive”
Sounds like someone who has chosen to live on a grape ranch and must drive to get anywhere from said grape ranch.
All the spending on local roads is necessary for school buses, thus it is an education subsidy.
It is so easy to be a liberal.
As usual, Frank, Metrof–ks and others here prove themselves to be auto apologist idiots who have no conception of reality, all and all. No substantive response except the usual personal attacks and insults (yes, I’ve made personal attacks, but only in retaliation). My expectations were low and are confirmed amply by mendacious responses and lies.
Metrosucks, “Strong Towns” is a hate site, alright. They hate the complete waste of public funds and the waste represented by the postwar suburban development pattern. They’ve even documented it, and will be presenting their EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE, starting with data from a strongly Republican town, Lafayette, LA. over the next several weeks as they have time to format and post it. http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/5/10/lafayette.
Trolls like you provide all sorts of entertainment to us in the reality-based community–including people like Chuck Marohn, hardly a flaming liberal, the American Conservative folks who actually understand–attempting all sorts of rhetorical and intellectual handstands to disprove the increasing mountains of empirical facts that falsify your putrid ideologies, e.g., that of stupid Internet trolls who think just because THEY believe it, it is real. DENY REALITY ALL YOU WANT. IT WON’T MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE.
BTW, I’m often amused by the continuously wrong or premature predictions of Jim Kunstler, but he was SO RIGHT about one key thing: the U.S. “investment” (sic) in the auto-based suburban way of life after World War II was the greatest misallocation of resources in human history. And Chuck Marohn and his associates are on the verge of providing irrefutable proof of Jim’s assertion. Well, irrefutable except to the trolling political kooks and quacks who dominate the comments sections of blogs like The Antiplanner and many other online spaces.
BTW, Metrof-cks, Dom Nozzi’s latest post on induced traffic and the “triple convergence” are based on mountains of empirical evidence, not that you’re man enough or open-minded enough to let your opinions be influenced by actual science and evidence.
Then of course there’s the mountain of evidence that “Free-Parking” is also in the same categories as unicorns, costing at least $500 billion+…e.g., more than $0.20.mile driven for personal automobiles. Of course, Shoup’s work remains the largest body of work on THIS subsidy for driving…and who gives a shit if its a “public” or “private” expenditure, and this figure doesn’t include the built in cost for garages and driveways in almost all mortgages…and apartment rents…
Here is part of what Dom Nozzi actually said, contradicting the crass mendaciousness and fundamental, if goofy intellectual dishonesty of trolls like Metro-f-cks:
http://domz60.wordpress.com/2015/04/28/understanding-the-implications-of-induced-traffic-and-the-triple-convergence/.
The concepts of induced traffic and the triple convergence are vexing transportation phenomena that – when not acknowledged — mislead a great many people about what should and should not be done to correct transportation problems.
Induced traffic and the triple convergence inform us that many travelers opt not to travel certain routes, opt not to travel at rush hour, or opt not to drive a car IF a route is congested. If the route is less congested (due to a widening of a road or intersection), those discouraged travelers “converge” back on the route, converge back on rush hour, and converge back on car travel.
The road congests again, due to induced traffic caused by the triple convergence. And rather quickly. Unless the community is losing population.
Another way of putting this is that in our world, there will pretty much always be a latent demand for more driving. Much of that demand is discouraged or diverted by congestion. Much of the discouragement goes away when the road becomes less congested.traffic congestion
Roads are not like pipes carrying water. They are more like pipes carrying gas. Expand the pipe and the gas expands to fill the larger pipe. We cannot loosen our belts to avoid obesity. We cannot widen our way (or shift our form of travel) out of congestion….
BTW, Frank, I judge the veracity of an article by the reliability of its content, not necessarily its author. FFPIR has produced high quality work in the past, even if you don’t agree. Your point is just a variation of an Ad Hominem attack, without actually taking issue with what that article actually said. And arguing that streets are needed for a functioning community is technically correct, but 90 percent of street costs would disappear if autos hadn’t been invented. A subsidy is a subsidy, considering that the figure also includes costs probably 90 percent+ related to autos, particularly for major arterials and other traffic sewers.
“if autos hadn’t been invented”
So now we’re at the core of msetty’s fantasies.
“and other traffic sewers”
Hmm, so people driving around freely in their cars, going to work, fun, running errands, etc, is the equivalent of sewage in msetty’s eyes. I can’t help but draw a parallel to how the Nazi’s said that Jews going about on their daily business was like rats scurrying on the streets and in the sewers.
Very nice, msetty, very nice. And btw, you quoted Dom Nozzi as proof that his fantasies are factual. Can I now simply reference myself as proof for any statements I make? Nice work if you can get it.
It was Chuck Marohn came up with the term “traffic sewers” for “stroads” e.g., the latter roadways that are a dysfunctional cross between highways and streets. “Traffic sewers” are a most apt description.
On a scale of effective argumentation, Metrof-cks’ latest screed is perhaps 5 out of 100.
I see, Metrf-cks, that you again are living proof of “Godwin’s Law.”
And I can see frakking morons like you have nothing, absolutely nothing, constructive to add to a “national conversation on conversation.” Your rear guard actions trying to shout people down will be overcome at some point, as pointed out in this article: http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2015/04/02/time-to-stop-stalling-a-national-conversation-about-transportation/.
I’d say auto apologists like Frank, Metro-fcks and others want to stall this vitally-needed discussion because they know they’ll lose, as will those who favor more transportation funding simply as pork for themselves and their cronies. If you have managed to pay attention, you’ll note that Marohn’s main motivation is to short circuit the entire transportation pork-barreling process, as proven here: http://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2015/5/13/why-i-do-not-support-move-mn.
Hmmmnnn, Marohn is also as good as coining a catchy, politically effective phrase as Frank Lutz, infamous Republican pollster. “infrastructure cult” “traffic sewer” “stroad” and so on…
And Metrof-cks, If you think you can shout down people like Marohn, the conservatives at American Conservative who, unlike most claiming the “conservative” moniker, actually understand urbanism, and others like me, through personal attacks and claims that our points are insane or morally equivalent to Nazism, good luck! You might as well bay at the Moon, which your rantings strongly resemble.
No point in responding, metrosucks. Something sure got under the setty’s skin for him to write 799 words in five different comments , and it wasn’t a personal attack by me as I didn’t attack anyone personally. Let’s see…who’s the one calling other people “idiots”? Hmm.
He can’t even grasp who said what, evidenced by his response to streets being needed for a community (a claim made by someone else).
Certainly the setty would be the first one to attack a peer-reviewed study (and the “study”he posted was not peer reviewed) about global warming for not being written by a climate scientist. He’d be only too happy to attack the source in that circumstance.
Time to ignore the setty, metrosucks, as vituperative as his responses may be.
Please, oh please, Metrosucks and Frank, ignore my posts. I’ll ignore yours if you do so. Frank, your posts about where I currently live is a personal attack, since you made slanderous attacks aboutmy motives.
The ideological war against trains: http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/the-plot-against-trains. Only quibble is that author criticizes Chris Christie for cancelling a badly-planned train tunnel into Manhattan for good technical reasons.
“Please, oh please, Metrosucks and Frank, ignore my posts. I’ll ignore yours if you do so. ”
Deal.
Time to ignore the setty, metrosucks, as vituperative as his responses may be.
Yeah I know. It’s extremely hard most of the time, as his posts are almost always overfilled with false statements, nasty personal references, completely unsupported claims, and just plain bullshit. But I will try my best to ignore the pest.
I just have one question. If he honestly believes we’re going to lose, and he’s going to win, why is he on this irrelevant blog, angrily posting his vitriol? What gives?
The Antiplanner wrote:
While intercity bus operators pay a discounted fuel tax, the buses otherwise operate without subsidy.
Don’t forget that on the I-95/I-295/New Jersey Turnpike run between Washington, D.C. and New York City (which competes directly with trains on Amtrak’s N.E. Corridor), the buses run on toll roads and toll crossings much of the way (one of the three toll crossings of Baltimore Harbor and I-95 (JFK Highway) in Maryland (northbound only); I-95 in Delaware (Delaware Turnpike); I-295 (Delaware Memorial Bridge (southbound only); New Jersey Turnpike; and Lincoln Tunnel (northbound only).
@Cp z
Just because you pay a toll doesn’t mean it covers the cost of the road of course. Do you know what the tolls sum to for a typical roundtrip? Was hoping to find a news story quoting a bus company, but came up empty. Also, what buses pay to berth on the street or bus terminals on either end?
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/city-hall/2014/07/8549619/wheres-big-fix-port-authority-terminal
Is $45 typical, or are there volume or off peak discounts? Looks like njtransit is getting a discount in the tunnel too, not just the PABT. Do other large operators get discounts? Or is this just another case of the port authority being used to subsidize a non core service in one of the states…
ahwr wrote:
Just because you pay a toll doesn’t mean it covers the cost of the road of course.
I agree.
In more than a few states, including the Delaware and New Jersey Turnpikes and the interstate crossings of the Hudson River owned by the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey, drivers pay far more than the “cost of the road,” and toll revenues are diverted to projects and services having little benefit to toll road patrons (such as Delaware’s DART lines, N.J. Transit and the Port Authority’s PATH trains).
Nor is this unique to those states.
The Maryland Transportation Authority used to fork over millions of dollars annually to the Maryland Transit Administration (this was a bid by ex-Gov. Parris Nelson Glendening to “increase transit ridership” which did not work, and the diversion ended some years ago), the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission has been providing billions of dollars in transit subsidies for the past 7 or 8 years to SEPTA and the Port Authority of Allegheny County and other Pennsylvania transit agencies; and in Virginia, tolls on the Dulles Toll Road were massively increased to fund most of the construction cost of a train line to Dulles Airport.
Do you know what the tolls sum to for a typical roundtrip?
I believe every one of those toll road operators has a Web site with the tolls listed there.
That was a lot of words to say you don’t know what buses pay or if it covers their share of the cost of the roads and terminals they use.
Double-decker bus may not be the alternative you want. Here’s what happens when Amtrak meets one. http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/enquetes-investigations/rail/2013/r13t0192/images/r13t0192-photo-03.png
^Except that wasn’t an Amtrak train; it was a VIA Rail Canada train. Why misrepresent? And what does this have to do with the general safety of double-decker buses?
”
They hate the complete waste of public funds and the waste represented by the postwar suburban development pattern.
”
~msetty
Hate is the correct term. It is not a level-headed approach for the most part. Too often it’s an overly emotional vendetta.
They share some good points at times. At other times, like their never ending enron-accounting based claims that “suburban development” is unsustainable grinds you down like a carful of kids asking “are we there yet”.
Revenue was @$21 / rider.
ahwr wrote:
That was a lot of words to say you don’t know what buses pay or if it covers their share of the cost of the roads and terminals they use.
As I suggested previously, you can look those things up online.
I realize that my answer was probably not the one you were looking for.