The latest dumb idea for saving the planet is being promoted in many Canadian and a few American cities: banning drive-through restaurant windows. Calgary is thinking of it. So are Windsor and several other Canadian cities.
Drive-thru McDonalds in Wai Gao Qiao, China. Click photo for complete story.
Flickr photo by McChronicles.
In the U.S., Madison is thinking of it. So is Leesburg, Virginia. San Luis Obispo actually banned drive thrus 25 years ago. Even though an informal poll found that 63 percent of residents think the ban should be lifted, the city council decided not to do it because it would be “unfair to all the businesses that have opened up over the last 25 years” — as if they couldn’t add a drive thru if they wanted one.
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Banning drive thrus is the same kind of anti-auto idea that hasn’t really worked anywhere: if we just making auto driving less convenient, maybe a few more people will ride the bus or walk. That’s like the planners who want to make suburbs unlivable so people will move back to the cities.
Problems with the automobile can best be solved by fixing those problems, not by trying to discourage driving. Anything that makes driving less convenient is simply one more tax on people.
Personally, I don’t eat at fast food restaurants, and I wouldn’t know how to order at a drive thru if it were the only food in town. But, unlike some people, I don’t want to impose my preferences on others. It is one thing to search for cost-effective ways to make alternatives to driving more attractive. But policies that aim to make driving less attractive are a stupid waste of people’s time.
In general, I agree with The Antiplanner on this. But pedestrians and bicyclists have “rights” too.
In most cases, such bans are simply symbolic gestures by “feel good” types. I have no problem a tall with this in auto-oriented strips and other commercial areas, but I think they should be banned in only one case–where having drive-thrus would undermine walkable downtowns and other business districts.
I am certain that some individuals commenting on this blog will fail to understand my point, but no matter. In such cases, such land uses conflict with the rights of pedestrians and bicyclists. Things like curb cuts across sidewalks should also be minimized in walkable areas.
Ah yes, the good ol’ 77th amendment giving pedestrians and bicyclist the right to travel without curbs.
Many smaller and mid-sized cities also ban drive-thrus. This is strictly a theory-driven ideological measure and not one with any basis in fact.
Sheesh, we’re all agreeing with Randal today. I wouldn’t be caught dead in a fast-food drive-thru, but if folks want to unthinkingly consume this cr*p, that’s their deal, and high gas prices and C taxes will decrease some of the the mindless idling in line.
These symbolic gestures are cute, but enabling alternate transportation modes
And I like prk’s attitude: f those kids – let them dodge cars!
Oops – didn’t mean to post.
These symbolic gestures are cute, but enabling alternate transportation modes will do more to eliminate auto-dependence. Too bad that takes political will.
DS
Dan: “enabling alternate transportation modes will do more to eliminate auto-dependence.”
What do mean by “enabling”, Dan?
Dallas Area Rapid Transit (DART) has collected about $5 billion in taxes from the few million household that live in its service area. Voters agreed to tax themselves after DART claimed its light rail trains would remove 150,000 cars from the roadways within 20 years.
Twenty-five years after the vote “enabling” light rail, the daily ridership on DART trains is about 68,000. At most, this ridership which double-counts roundtrips represents 34,000 cars. But, of course it’s not even 34,000. Many of these riders would not have driven cars anyway, but used the bus system that was already in place. A reasonable estimate for the autos removed from roadways is 20,000. That’s about 13% of what DART propaganda promised in 1983.
DART drastically lowered ridership projections immediately after the election, of course. So now DART can proudly claim that it has exceeded its initial projections – though not the ones the voters were promised.
Approximately 2 million workers commute to jobs in the DART service area, so DART’s heavily subsidized light rail moves about 1.7% of such workers. But all 2 million workers pay for it, of course.
Dallas voters “enabled” alternate transportation, but it had almost zero impact on automobile usage.
Antiplanner,
Before going any further, a brief comment on the photograph you posted for the benefit of your loyal readers. I can read and speak some Mandarin Chinese. The two Pinyin characters under the McDonald’s golden arches read ren kou, which translates into English as the word “population”. A more literal meaning is “human mouths”, which has been interpreted by some learned figures to describe an ancient historical fear amongst the Chinese about having enough food on hand to feed their population.
As for not allowing no drive-through’s, this is plainly silly. Drive through’s are a simple matter of convenience. Customers desiring to eat at fast food restaurants will now have to park and crowd the interior space of the restaurant to eat.
Another way of looking at these ordinances is that a large amount of what actually goes on in City Halls, state capitals, and in Washington is that interest groups lobby governments to hinder (or stomp out) competition in the marketplace, as evidenced here by the San Luis Obispo City Council expressing the issue that lifting the ban because it would be unfair to all the businesses which have opened up over the past 25 years.
By politicizig the issue, McDonalds has found itself having to spend time schmoozing the SanLuis Obispo City Council, and that possibly means having to fork out the usual rent extractions and extortions campaign contributions, tickets to sports games, travel, and so forth for Council members in order to sway their decision to lift the ban.
John, apologies for unclarity – prk’s point was about ped and bike mobility.
Context-sensitive transportation solutions include, of course, safety for the significant fraction of the population who can’t drive, esp. the future capitalists and objectivists who are still on training wheels.
DS
In my neighborhood(in Portland Oregon) that was built as a auto oriented area, now has new rules sense light rail cuts through it. Such as Drive-Through Facilities.
———–
33.526.110 Prohibited Uses
A. Purpose. The Gateway plan district’s regulations foster development that is oriented primarily to pedestrians and transit patrons. This intention is based on the significant public investment in light rail transit that has been made in this area, and on the area’s designation as a Regional Center in Metro’s Region 2040 Plan.
B. Prohibited uses. The following uses are prohibited:
1.Vehicle Repair;
2.Quick Vehicle Servicing; and
3.Commercial Parking.
C. Other restrictions. Certain types of development are also prohibited. These developments are listed in Sections 33.526.210, Exterior Display and Storage, and 33.526.220, Drive-Through Facilities.
At least the Portland control freaks are candid about their ideological motive. In other places, planners caution against drive-thrus because it might back up traffic on arterials. Some of them can even say this with a straight face.
You could do what Crested Butte CO has done and just ban franchises outright. I have to say, I don’t agree with these bans, but CB is one of the most wonderful places on earth. Better the Houston anyway 😉
Crested Butte is wonderful to visit. It’s a bitch of a place to live unless you don’t care too much about having career and don’t mind 7 months of winter.
And for the record, I’m dependent on my car like I am sex. Sure, I can do without it but why the would I ever be that insane?????
Summit, Grand and Eagle Counties too.
We were just in Steamboat and we wished there were no franchises there, as they cr*pified the built environment, which was placed in this amazing greenness.
There is much thrashing about in these mountain destination towns about affordable housing, as Ricardian rents are bid up so high that service workers can’t even get close. But at least Steamboat did a great job at enabling non-motorized.
DS
While Madison’s planners engage in the the regulatory equivalent of navel gazing, it is heartening to see real innovation taking place in the developing world:
You want fries with that?
This may turn out to be the contrarian view, but here goes…
In the UK, there are very few drive-throughs, and honestly I cannot see any more being provided.
Car drivers should be expected to shuffle from their car a few yards across the car park. Laziness is one thing, but this is ridiculous. It’s like people who can’t be bothered to get out of their car and press the door-bell, but who instead sit in their car leaning on their horn, disturbing the whole neighbourhood.
Antiplanner wrote:
“But, unlike some people, I don’t want to impose my preferences on others.”
Isn’t that what people go into politics to do? When a politician has no convictions left, why are they still there? What is the point of democracy under those circumstances?
Statists have very deep convictions. That’s what makes them so dangerous.
Fraidy cats have very deep fears. That’s what makes them call people statists & collectivists.
DS
Hiya Budday!
If the 20th century has taught us anything it’s to be fearful of those who believe in the perfectability of human nature and are not hesitant to achieve it by the exercise of force.
#17
No fear here, but why do statists and collectivists object to the label that describes their chosen political methods? Libertarians don’t object to their moniker. Dan, you protest too much.
Dan said:
We were just in Steamboat and we wished there were no franchises there
—————
Then do what Disney did and buy enough land and control everything in your Danny world.
Francis King said:
Car drivers should be expected to shuffle from their car a few yards across the car park. Laziness is one thing, but this is ridiculous.
——————–
Drive-throughs provide a great service such as provide a fast way to stop and get right on you way if your in a hurry.
If your in a area with a parking problem you just get in line and do your banking or buy your food without having to look for a parking space.
I use to live next to a bank in a neighborhood with a parking problem and not only are drive-throughs great but atm’s cut the Monday and Friday double lines to a one line now that has rarely more than 4 cars in it.
You can choose to walk in or use the drive-through depending on your needs and you don’t have to feel guilty from the anti drive-through crowd.
From the referenced article: “We’re making huge strides away from our auto focus,” she said. “I think we need to look at all sorts of means to reduce our carbon footprint, and this is one of them.”
This must be very frustrating for the IPCC. Just as they say they finally got the climate prediction models right, here comes Calgary to ban drive troughs.
I’ll bet good money total carbon footprints are expanded by banning drivethroughs because demand for interior space and car parks will be increased. Production of both causes carbon emissions.
Ostensibly, yet another idea that is the product of considering one aspect of behaviour in isolation.
Actually, just another attack on personal freedoms by people who simply cannot entertain the idea of live and let live.
As this Burger Time in Grand Forks, ND demonstrates [link], a drive-thru can actually lead to less need for parking spots. That is, less asphalt. So it’s a bad thing?
Well this is kind of an American idle thing, where people are too lazy to park and walk 50 feet into the restaurant.