How did I miss this story? A European publication describes Spain’s high-speed rail system as “a bona fide policy error typical of a nouveau riche nation.”
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Spain has spent or is spending 6 billion euros on a high-speed network that is only expected to carry about 1 percent as many passengers a year as the nation’s commuter trains. Moreover, the high cost of high-speed rail fares “forces young people onto the bus” (which, as the Antiplanner pointed out earlier this week, isn’t necessarily a bad thing since buses are far less expensive and can be far more energy-efficient than trains). The bad thing is that rail advocates in the U.S. use Spain’s example to argue that we should build similar white elephants.
So it’s not a total loss, at least these Spanish high-speed trains use (or will use) standard gauge so they are compatible with the gauge used by neighboring France – direct train travel between the two nations (without the break of gauge) should be possible by sometime in 2012.
The 3.5 million annual riders on AVE is obviously wrong.
In 2008 there were 5.48 billion passeneger km on high speed rail in Spain and 23.97 billion passenger km total on intercity rail.
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/publications/statistics/doc/2010_energy_transport_figures.pdf
3.5 million riders would make the average Spanish trip length 1565 km, which is roughly the distance from Madrid to the Nuremberg.
DISSS IZZZZ EXASSPAWATING.
They need to be more like Scrooge McDuck and be very frugle and they’ll be swimming in money.
The 3.5 million annual riders on AVE is obviously wrong.
The article is referring to the Madrid-Valencia link, not the entire network.
MJ:
If that is what it is saying it is not particular clear.
“Why waste a fortune – €6 billion – on AVE, which, according to official forecasts, will only carry 3.5 million passengers its first year in operation? That figure pales next to the 400 million trips made on RENFE commuter rail in 2009.”
Its also a nonsequitur. It would be like comparing ridership on Acela to the NYC Subway, and then saying Acela is an abject failure because it doesn’t get 8 million riders per day.
Come on Andrew, stop trying to defend any and all boondoggles the Antiplanner exposes. Just because it runs on two steel rails doesn’t mean it makes sense.
Though Metrosucks, you’ll defend communist roads with out batting an eye.
Oh, I see. You accuse roads of being “communist” (untrue), yet when rail is “communist”, that is OK.
Roads don’t exist on a profit or loss basis you douche bag!
In Soviet Russia, rails bat you.
Seriously, In Portugal, didn’t they all but cancel their own high speed rail ambitions due to it being too expensive with their unemployment rate as high as 18 percent?
You accuse roads of being “communist†(untrue).
There are few if any private roads in the USA. With the exception of a few publicly financed and constructed toll roads, roads are the single outstanding example of communism in the USA. The state provides the roads to all, and anyone can partake for free regardless of one’s contribution. From each according to his abilities to each according to his needs.
To be fair, public schools are another good example of communism in the USA. Probably more so because of the level of indoctrination that occurs there.
metrosucks:
I wasn’t “defending” anything. I pointed out a problem with the numbers.
Why are you so siderodromophobic anyway?
To be fair, public schools are another good example of communism in the USA. Probably more so because of the level of indoctrination that occurs there.
Public schools have been around since before the War for Independence. The Northwest Ordinance in 1787 set aside land specifically to fund them and the purpose was openly stated to be what we would now call indoctrination.
Were the Founding Father’s communists?
I wasn’t there and didn’t know them so I don’t know.
There is a difference between a system of schools funded through a land grant and system of schools funded through compulsory taxes. There’s also is a difference between compulsory public schools and non-compulsory. I know that Thomas Jefferson was a staunch proponent of free publicly provided education. However he was opposed to compulsory education.
http://www.educationnews.org/articles/jefferson-on-public-education-defying-conventional-wisdom.html
Today, most public schools have compulsory attendance and are compulsory funded through taxes. They are responsive to the political process and non-responsive to the individuals who are compelled to consume their product.
Jardiner01:
There is no compulsory attendance at Public Schools. There is compulsory schooling of school age children. This can be satisfied with public schools, private schools, or home schooling.
You sound like you share the colonial Virginia elitist view that education was for the better classes only, and that those who could not afford it should be left ignorant.
I find it funny that you would cite Jefferson here. Jefferson had no role of policy influence in the US Government from 1776 to 1801 other than 6 months in congress from 1783 to 1784. His Declaration of Independence had a lot to say about basic principles and little to say about practical policies. Obviously his ideas were not particularly popular or widely held at that time.
Here is what the Northwest Ordinance contained:
Sec. 14, Art. 3 – Religion, morality, and knowledge, being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.
This was accomplished by setting aside at first one and later two sections of the 36 in each township. Chicago Midway Airport is one of these sections. There was no mandate that only income from this land could be used to support the schools, or that property taxes were somehow illegitimate (which would be funny since the property tax dates back to colonial times and were the main source of state and local tax revenue).
Sorry it is only for one line not the emtire train system , on a overall , it is cheaper , faster less pollution to use inter city train than plane , let’s take one single example the California high speed train ,you are required to be at the airport 2 hours in advance the flight take about 1 hour to los angeles you then have to clear the airport get in the traffic jam it can take up to one hour and more to reach downtown , on the average more like 6 hours , you can almost drive and beatr the plane “don’t tell the CHP” so yes the high speed train is a viable efficient way to get there will the public bite in it , American ? No everywhere in the world yes .
Lazyreader , you should try russian railways some still have wooden bench
Roads aren’t communist, they’re paid for out of a system that’s the closest we can have to user-paid fees, under the government regime.
Metrosucks; Roads aren’t communist, they’re paid for out of a system that’s the closest we can have to user-paid fees, under the government regime.
THWM: So then public transit is fully funded by user-paid fees too.
I know you’re not really that stupid.
Though Metrosucks, you’re evil & crooked.
Uh huh. Evil & crooked because I oppose the theft of billions of dollars from drivers to pay for your favored form of transportation. That’s rich.
WTF? I drive some times too, but un like you I don’t live in a car.
That’s the liberal problem, thinking they’re better than everyone else because they use cars as little as possible.
So your liberal driving makes you think you’re better than every one else, though Metrosucks you’re not better than any one else!